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cursedbat Profile
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Apprentice

Registered: 02-2004
Posts: 297
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Re: Urethane cowls and safety


No actually the question is also whether its bad for you to wear urethane not just if its allergic and the opinions of the companies as well as many sources say it is so we should talk about it. More people say it is than that say it isn’t from my experience and that’s even been people outside the trade and companies selling the stuff, which is odd. Some of the tech reasons were given above and I think that like with any topic you could be told one thing by a person who is an expert only to find that in the long run it added to you getting THE BIG "C". I know you wont die from one smoke but like anything if its helping to hurt you over time and there are other options why do it. Some of the reasons or questions why the "solid rubbers" are still dangerous over the short or long run were listed in my info such as miss mixtures, free-floating particles, solvents etc. I don’t know why you don’t understand the do or don’t do aspect of the question; the question in the end is not about money but about options and information.

I personally prefer organic or water based materials to solvents not that they can’t hurt you but seem a little milder.

The other part of the question was about the finish desired for our suits, the reasons for using urethane, and the problems with the nature of the latex cell. Latex always has a dull look even when it’s painted with latex because of the way the surface reflects light. So to get a true jet-black you have to have a surface treatment of some kind or go with plasti as a last result as many brothers do to get that deep satin black. If it were any other way and not a problem many people industry as well as hobbyist would have one less headache.

That is in some cases where the urethane comes in to favor by some prop builders and collectors besides that it lasts longer, which was another part of the original question. Again if you look at the post I brought up that urethane has that desired look to it which is again why many people look to it but soft urethane loses some of the qualities that the harder urethane has. Take a belt made from shore 60 and set it next to a cowl of urethane that is a 40 or less. The two surfaces are not the same and if you feel them or rub the softer one it starts to matte down also. The problem is when brothers here don’t even know the difference or even that there are other options or to ask questions at all so opening a dialogue on the matter informs everyone.

If we really want to push the envelope we could work on doing trials with combinations of new and old materials and keep encouraging others here to get involved in the creative side of it as well as build their own suits instead of buying. Especially the new guys who have wide eyes and less knowledge. Its exciting when the community focus is on being a group working on building things and being more involved in the sculpting and materials aspects, pushing the craft, and less like a store to shop in.


Last edited by cursedbat, 6/29/2004, 11:35 am


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Dont disrespect the archetype with the pathetic sides of the human condition


6/29/2004, 11:25 am Link to this post Send Email to cursedbat   Send PM to cursedbat
 
DAVIDYR1 Profile
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Caped Crusader

Registered: 02-2004
Location: UD Replicas
Posts: 3408
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Re: Urethane cowls and safety


I dont think this board focusses on selling or is a store to shop in...If it is, then it's news to me.

I and many others have always publicly helped those wanting to build their own suits...mold help, casting help...painting details and so on. This place is a communtiy of people wanting to put together a costume...not a store as you put it...some can do it on their own while others cant or dont want to but there is a difference. What other boards focus on or what they do is their right...the Monster Lab is known for it to be an 'info' related board for example but there are many leading effects people who post there...here we're a bunch of fan boys/girls wanting to do our best to make the coolest suit. I've been making costumes for 20 years and I'm not nearly at the level of most on the Monster lab...Not even close.

The problem you address regarding Urethanes needs to be approached differently.

Understanding materials is one thing...drawing conclusions on them is another.

Of course any urethane will change consistency or feel from shore hardness to shore hardness. That's an understood fact and has nothing to do with safety issues.

Can you please provide us with some documented proof that there are hazards to cured materials and their contact to skin??

 I can agree that some people will not like latex because it irritates their skin and others the same thing with urethane....but seeing as we have Motorcycle helmets, bicycle helmets, hockey gear, urethane inserts in shoes, urethane car interiors that bake in the sun and even cosmetic jewelery...all items made from resins, urethanes and silicones...and we've yet to hear the dangers there...costuming is no different.

Unmixed materials have certain concerns...while mixed and demolded items have others and luckily...none of which are hazardous....and the exception to this does not make it the rule. If someone has a reaction to wool....does this mean we need to ban wool sweaters? No..it means that the person wears cotton instead. Some people are allergic to pollen...so we destroy all the flowers???

I regularly use all materials and have for years now....I've also had working relationships with many of the suppliers listed in the oringinal post...and specifically addressed the issue of wearing certain materials and skin contact. The only risk is to those of us who do not respect the materials when working with them.
Cured Urethane or Latex is safe. Individuals may prefer one material over the next but cured urethane or latex is not a health hazzard.

David



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6/29/2004, 11:52 am Link to this post  
 
Mattman585 Profile
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Dark Knight

Registered: 02-2004
Location: The Left Coast
Posts: 740
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Re: Urethane cowls and safety


I think it's good that Cursed Bat brought this up as a safety issue, and I also understand David's response about putting information out there which may not be acurate. As someone who's processed meth labs and hazmats I don't think there's any argument that a lot of this stuff in it's raw form is methylethylbadshi+ (highly technical term for stuff that can kill you).
But there are two kinds of exposures, one where you melt in your boots right now and the one that gets you 20 years later. How much information is out there regarding skin exposure to cured Latex or Urethane? Without doubt some of the nastiest stuff in the world is used in making safe products (like the keyboard I'm typing on). I general I would think cured products, that are worn infrequently, would carry a minimal to non-existant risk, but unless theres a study out there about people who wear Latex & Urethane, you can't be a 100% sure.
I think the more likely risk, that cursed has brought up, is an improper mix of chemicals. In the end it's never wrong to bring up legitimate questions about safety. Oh, and don't forget to wear sunscreen!
 :signal

Last edited by Mattman585, 6/29/2004, 1:09 pm


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"Clearly a man who dresses like a bat has issues"

6/29/2004, 1:08 pm Link to this post Send PM to Mattman585
 
DAVIDYR1 Profile
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Caped Crusader

Registered: 02-2004
Location: UD Replicas
Posts: 3408
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Re: Urethane cowls and safety


I totally agree with you Matt. 100%

Raising these questions is always good...but it's also important to have an understanding of these materials and how they are being used...and how they should be mixed and so on.

As you correctly state....typing on a keyboad is hazardous, then again all the micro waves from cell phones, remote controlls and so on are also hazardous. We need to know to what degree we're talking rather than jump to conclusions...that's all I'm trying to say.

David

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6/29/2004, 1:28 pm Link to this post  
 
BatDemon Profile
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Caped Crusader

Registered: 02-2004
Posts: 3212
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Re: Urethane cowls and safety


short answer, almost everything used in costume making can be hazardous to your health. from the ammonia in latex, to the cyanics given off during a cold foam process. as for contact with the skin, allergies do occur, but more of the concern is with asphixiation. meaning being encased in somthing doesn't allow your pores to "breathe". truth be told, there is more hazard in making the items than wearing them. once things have cured or "gased off" properly, they are ususally harmless. also, alot of the materials used were first developed for the medical industry.

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- BatDemon
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Jants Profile
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Banned user

Registered: 02-2004
Posts: 2291
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Re: Urethane cowls and safety


I wanted to also make something clear, I use a 60 shore hardness urethane for my belts and a 42 shore hardness for my cowls and I would love for Cursedbat to try and tell the difference in the blackness. They are identicle and neither will rub off or matte down. They are both a very, very shiny black.

Maybe your experience with softer shore hardness urethane's has been that sticky, eventually matting texture, but not in all cases. Again cursedbat, you speak for all urethane's, which isn't accurate. My F-42 cowls are stretchy, comfortable, not sticky and very shiny black. No need for painting whatsoever.

I do agree that I have never seen a very shiny black latex suit, painted with latex. It has that dull texture of the 89 suit, unless you shine it up with armor-all or silicone oil etc... which is why I prefer plasti-dip. I've said it once and I'll say it again, I have never experienced plasti-dip hugging latex as well as the plasti-dip hugs the latex I use. PLus it is very shiny, without needing to put anything on it, and it will prevent the latex from deteriorating over time. Somebody once said, SPF 5000 and it's true.

Lastly, people would be surprised at how many items have urethanes in it, as David mentioned earlier, making plenty of contact with skin. I have every type of booklet etc.. from Burman's and BJB and I didn't see 1 thing on urethane being poison to the skin, or any real warning about keeping the urethane off of the skin.

I won't deny that I prefer latex, because of the fact that I make latex cowls so light and thin, they weigh as much as a feather, but I also like the new urethane that I use. When you get down to the very low shore hardness urethanes, stickiness and having to make them very thick in order to hold their shape right is what needs to be done in order for it to look right, which is why I stick to a 42 shore hardness, because I can make it thin and still holds its shape, remaining very comfortable.

(BTW, the Blad 2 ninja suits had plenty of contact with the skin...I guess they don't care about effecting actors lives, as long as a movie gets done right...LOL.)

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Brother Warner Profile
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BOTB Member

Registered: 06-2004
Posts: 4
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Re: Urethane cowls and safety


Latex allergy is well documented in the medical profession. I personally know several people who have had to leave careers in nursing because of severe latex allegies. After 20 years as a paramedic and flight nurse, if I wear latex gloves, for even a short period, my hands will become itchy, red and irritated. Fortunately, where I work they have a 100% latex-free policy and use latex substitutes. In most cases, latex sensitivity is exacerbated over time. The longer and more frequent the exposure to latex the more likely one will react to it.

Latex, it turns out, is naturally formulated by the source tree to be an irritant, thus protecting the plant from insects and animals that may attempt to eat it.

Anyway, that's my story on latex. Thanks for bringing this topic up, I'm in the midst of deciding whether urethane is a viable alternative to latex for a batsuit for me and any information is a huge help to me. :sbob
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Jants Profile
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Banned user

Registered: 02-2004
Posts: 2291
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Re: Urethane cowls and safety


BW, I know what you mean, I know many people who are completely allergic to latex. I have had two people that I traded with, end up putting on the latex masks and getting skin irritations, so I traded their latex pieces for urethane ones and they have been happy ever since.

But for the most part, other then the two people mentioned above, most people I have dealt with can wear their latex pieces without a problem. It just depends on the individual in the end.

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6/29/2004, 3:40 pm Link to this post Send Email to Jants   Send PM to Jants
 
cursedbat Profile
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Apprentice

Registered: 02-2004
Posts: 297
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Re: Urethane cowls and safety


I love all of this conversation, can there be more!

It just seems a little like when you bring up great, healthy, contributing questions like this some people take them as personal attacks. Why? That discourages others and stifles the potential of the board. And as far as I knew we are just as focused on creating as the guys at monster lab especially with all the experience around here. Someone should not feel threatened or intimidated to ask these questions.

David, I didn’t call this a store whether it is or isn’t can be determined by each person I was saying it shouldn’t be one. I didn’t even draw a conclusion for others on urethane I only opened the dialogue and gave the facts I have until I get more info and will revise my opinion. I still say that there is more to know and no matter who comes here saying its all right I will continue to research. If someone is taking the responsibility of making others masks that enclose the face and doesn’t have some understandings of isocynates, diamine, free floating particles, etc...than I feel they are not looking after the brothers responsibly. I personally don’t even make urethane masks and would never wear one.

Janty I have used most major brands of urethanes including all of the stuff Burmans stocks as well as some stuff guys send me that are not available. If you could send me a sample or show me a 40 or especially a lower that doesn’t suffer from being matted down or surface dulled when a finger rubs it in the same manner as latex does, I will convert to the life of wandering the earth like in kung fu. Really though everyone in the industry would be in debt to you. I have looked for a low shore urethane that has the properties of a high shore forever. Bring it to San Diego Con.

My other main question being over looked a little is learning about the reasons people use urethane as cowls, the benefits, and I wonder what the desired look is everyone here is dreaming of.
Lets brainstorm on how to get that REALLLLL black out of a mask without plasti.

What do people think?


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Dont disrespect the archetype with the pathetic sides of the human condition


6/29/2004, 4:49 pm Link to this post Send Email to cursedbat   Send PM to cursedbat
 
Jants Profile
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Banned user

Registered: 02-2004
Posts: 2291
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Re: Urethane cowls and safety


cursedbat, I am going to bring a urethane Returns cowl to the Con, in F-42 urethane, pigmented black and one of my F-60 belts, pigmented black. I hope you go out and purchase some very comfortable shoes, because you are going to be doing a lot of wandering. :wink I am holding my F-42 urethane cowl right now, rubbing my finger on it and guess what...it's still shiny black.

A lot of these people who work at Burman's, BJB, Hastings etc.. are just sales people with hardly any actual experience in using the materials they sell. I have brought in Latex pieces into Burmans and had them all believing it was urethane, by simply asking them to look at it, feel it and tell me what it is...LOL! Not to mention blowing them away by bringing in brightly tinted red, gree, blue etc..latex and showing them that it can be done, without having to paint the latex after it cures.

Maybe you don't know how to mix your materials properly, which is why you are ending up with fading pieces, by simply touching them.

Just for the record, I am not taking any offence to good questions brought up, it's how you bring them up. You go right into what is wrong or right, without really looking into it and doing more then just e-mailing or talking to sales reps. Not to mention allowing bad information to go out, without knowing for a fact, like not being able to pigment soft shore hardness urethanes and making them as dark and shiny as a higher shore hardness urethane....think about it..

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6/29/2004, 5:05 pm Link to this post Send Email to Jants   Send PM to Jants
 


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