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BladeAndBatmanFan
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Registered: 10-2005
Location: Memphis TN
Posts: 467
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Batman: A Discussion of the Character, Murder & Justice
Hey friends,
I was talking to my wife in the car today and we talked about this for two hours - and the discussion became very heated.
My point was that Batman (MY Batman to be specific), MY Batman would never kill anyone for any reason. That Batman is out for Justice and often brings Justice to those criminals who are otherwise untouched. Does that make sense?
My Batman doesn't kill or murder, however you define the terms. That MY Batman always fights that urge - that desire - that moment where he might kill. And in the end, just like in Batman Begins, he make the right choice. The choice not to kill.
However you slice it, however you define it, whatever you want to call it: My Batman does not Kill. He tries to bring Criminals to justice.
My wife says that there are just those times when you HAVE to kill in order to protect the innocent. Her example was what if some crazy man opens fire with a machine gun into a crowd.
I tried to explain to my wife and I was only really talking about what we have seen Batman fight against. I didn't want to go into those school shootings, or Hitler and all that. Just what we have seen Batman do.
And then my wife had a SUPERB example that made me think: "The Killing Joke" has Batman in the end, killing the Joker. My lovely wife says that was the ONLY way to finally stop the Joker once and for all.
And I have always ALWAYS felt that there are always other options. That there is always another way to find Justice - without killing.
Now please understand I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE MILITARY, I am not talking about anything but Batman. I won't go into US -vs- Iraq, or whatever. This is a Batman only conversation.
Also, I am not talking about strict "canon" Batman either because Batman has killed human beings in the comic books.
So, what the heck am I talking about anyway. I thought about it and want to hear what everyone else thinks.
I feel that if Batman kills, then he is no different than the Joker. That if Batman kills, and doesn't bring the criminal to Justice, that he BECOMES the Joker. Does that make sense at all?
MY Batman, in the end, won't murder or kill anyone. I know there is a difference, but to me personally killing is killing is killing is killing. (Again, only talking about Batman here)
I really wanted to know what everyone else thought about Batman and if he should kill - or try to find an alternative to bring criminals to Justice? What are your thoughts?
Also, please be nice. I wasn't trying to start a Military, or God, or political discussion. I would like to keep this a Batman related discussion.
So, what are your thoughts on the Batman and Batman actually Killing?
:signal
Last edited by Deadly Lemur, 3/16/2009, 11:33 am
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6/8/2008, 3:41 pm
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Batdoogie
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Registered: 10-2006
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Re: Batman: A discussion of the "character," "murder," and "Justice"
Since Batman is a fantasy, it's perfectly acceptable for him to not have to kill anyone to stop them in a fantasy world. Batman wouldn't last very long in the real world anyway, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Are you talking about what you WANT Batman to be in the comic world?
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You deserve what you tolerate
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6/8/2008, 3:49 pm
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jokesterjmac
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Re: Batman: A discussion of the "character," "murder," and "Justice"
No hes asking what you think batman would really do in your mind.
MY Batman would eventually have to kill the joker, just like in TDKR in the end the only way to stop someone that crazy was to purge their existence.
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ZUR EN AHRR
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6/8/2008, 4:00 pm
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BladeAndBatmanFan
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Registered: 10-2005
Location: Memphis TN
Posts: 467
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Re: Batman: A discussion of the "character," "murder," and "Justice"
Excellent question. To be more specific, I would ask what the Batman in your MIND would do. I know what the "Real World" Batman would probably have to do - kill the Joker or whoever.
But the Batman in the comic books, the hero YOU love, the ideal Batman to YOU, would he Kill, or would he find another way?
My Batman, the Batman in my mind, the Batman I love would not kill for any reason. He would fight to the end, but just like in Batman Begins, he would stop himself from Killing - because then he BECOMES what he is fighting against.
I always thought that what seperated Batman from what he fought against was that Batman had a line he would never cross. And that Justice in it's true form would be about the alternative to killing.
Am I being optimistic, probably. But again, this is abstract and fictional! hahaha :confused These are difficult concepts to articulate from time to time.
I guess what I am asking is, your Batman, in the comic book and movie sense of the hero, is he allowed to Kill? Or should he find an alternative to killing so he doesn't become the monsters he is fighting against?
:batman
Quote:
Batdoogie wrote:
Since Batman is a fantasy, it's perfectly acceptable for him to not have to kill anyone to stop them in a fantasy world. Batman wouldn't last very long in the real world anyway, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Are you talking about what you WANT Batman to be in the comic world?
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"It's not who you are inside, but what you DO that defines you!"
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6/8/2008, 4:10 pm
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The ExistentialBat
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Registered: 09-2007
Location: Trinovantum
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Re: Batman: A discussion of the "character," "murder," and "Justice"
Not that it particularly matters to the discussion.
But Batman doesn't kill the Joker in The Killing Joke and he almosts kills the Joker in The Dark Knight Returns, stopping just short of actually breaking his neck completely, The Joker actually dies by laughing and thus completing the break to his spine.
And in Begins he doesn't kill ra's but he chooses not to save him.
It's all semantics really.
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"Was ist ist
Was nicht ist ist moglich"
Free Tibet.
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6/8/2008, 4:18 pm
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Lrcrow
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Registered: 01-2007
Location: Gotham City, TX
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Re: Batman: A discussion of the "character," "murder," and "Justice"
Ordinary citizens have the right to kill in self-defense. My Batman would retain that right, but only use it in the rarest, most extreme situations. Killing for revenge or because he's in a crappy mood, absolutely not.
But then you have to ask, what is murder in this sense? Suppose Bats is fighting some goon. He knocks the guy down a stairway and the guy breaks his neck and dies. Or, suppose he punches a thug who then crashes through a window and falls ten stories to his death. Is that murder? Self-defense? What if the thug is an international assassin?
Last edited by Lrcrow, 6/8/2008, 10:33 pm
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6/8/2008, 4:42 pm
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MikeydeeBee53
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Registered: 04-2008
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Re: Batman: A discussion of the "character," "murder," and "Justice"
Batman would not kill. In my mind, he would not kill. He would beat the $hit out of someone to the point where every bone in their body would be broken and they would be hospitalized for the next 6 months, but he would never kill. Plan and simple.
Now, in the end of Batman Begins, when he lets Ra's Al Ghul die, the Batman I know, wouldn't have let that happen, BUT since its a movie, I understand them killing off the character.
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6/8/2008, 5:09 pm
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isshogai
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Registered: 05-2005
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Re: Batman: A discussion of the "character," "murder," and "Justice"
I actually had this very same argument recently with one of my students. The background to this is he was concerned that despite my extensive training (I am instructor to Speical Forces groups etc, in hand to hand etc), how could I condone responding with lethal force if my hero wouldn't.
And my answer was quite simple, Batman can choose not to kill and opponent becasue of his superirior combat skills.
Despite my training, I practice, and teach my studetns that you NEVER want to know how good your opponent is. He could be useless at fighting, he could be an ex Navy Seal. If you have to defen yourself you do not know how good they could be. So don't find out. I beleive that if in a violent a social enviroment where violence is the only answer you MUST inflict serious injury, even death on your opponent before he has the oppertunity to hurt you.
That way it doesn't matter if the guy is useless at fightign an MMA champion or a Navy Seal. If he has a broken ankle, ruptured Spleen, ruptured testecials, a punctured lung or no eyeballs or dead, he is no longer a threat. That's the real world. You cannot take the chance.
Batman, on the other hand, is the best hand to hand combatant with the exception of Karate Kid in the DC universe. There is no one who can out do him hand to hand, thus he does not have to resort to the instant lethal force option.
He is the best, thus he can afford to attempt restraint, knock out, less lethal means, and thus avoid killing someone.
With that said, what if Batman side kicked or punched someone who had an undiagnosed cognetial heart defect, or tripped and bashed there head? Then he'd be guilty of manslaughter, which actually occurs quite frequently in the comics.
Also, DKR actually has an example of this line of thinking - in it an agressor descends down a staircase and Batman lurks underneath. He lists 7 possible counters to the situation, 1 lehtal, 1 maiming the opponent for life, and 5 non lethal. In his youth he woudl have choosen one fo the five. As an old man, he no longer has the luxury of such and so cripples the guy. He can't risk a fight he could lose.
My 2 cents.
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6/8/2008, 5:42 pm
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martynross
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Registered: 11-2007
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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Re: Batman: A discussion of the "character," "murder," and "Justice"
i dont think the batman should kill. it goes against everything he stand for, as well as the reason he does this
however i do think that if, absoloutly necessary he should.i only mean in the most extreme circumstance where there was only two possible outcomes- thousands of people dying or killing the madman responsibe.
he should never kill for personel reasons (revenge etc)
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6/8/2008, 5:52 pm
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BladeAndBatmanFan
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Registered: 10-2005
Location: Memphis TN
Posts: 467
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Re: Batman: A discussion of the "character," "murder," and "Justice"
Excellent points everyone. Awesome discussion. I can't wait to read more. My wife wanted to share her thoughts, if thats okay. Here is Alice:
Hey, guys.
Chuck and I have been talking about this all day. For the most part, we agree. The sticking point is when Chuck says that Batman should never kill for any reason.
Isshogai had some excellent points. To take what he says a bit further, I've given Chuck the example of the Joker firing an automatic weapon into a crowd of people. Batman would have to get to the Joker in order to kick his ass, so I think in this situation, elimination from a distance is in order. With so many weapons in his arsenal, I'm sure there's a surefire way to beat him without killing him, but what if killing him is the only way to stop him from shooting? After all, all it takes to shoot some guns is a hand connected to a brain.
Also, because it's a comic book world, the Joker can escape Arkham Asylum in so many ways and in every book. He always comes up with a plan to escape, and every time he escapes, he kills people. This, if I remember correctly, was the idea behind the Killing Joke. How many times can this man escape before he is eliminated? How many people should he be allowed to kill? He's obviously a danger, and taking him back to Arkham just gives him the time to formulate a new plan. Do I think that Batman should have to make the final decision about the Joker? No, but most of the time, you kinda want him to.
And here's the last thing I'll say. MY Batman will do and has done everything in his power to stop the Joker when it comes down to the end. MY Batman's first choice is justice by the rules. But there will come a time when justice by the rules doesn't work. When Batman has to make the decision to let the Joker escape or kill him. Under those circumstances, for the good of the city and the millions of innocent people, MY Batman will kill the Joker.
*Whew* Glad I'm not Batman!
Alice
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6/8/2008, 10:40 pm
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