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TheGuard Profile
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Registered: 08-2004
Posts: 93
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Restrictiveness of Batsuits


I've been doing some thinking about the so-called restrictive nature of the rubber suit in the previous franchise, and in BEGINS. The whole "Batman can't turn his head" thing has always been an issue and a "problem" fans had with the movie, but recently, most notably with the news that the BATMAN BEGINS Batsuit would be rubber, a lot of people claim it really slowed the actors down, made them look robotic, etc. Much of the proof from this seems to stem from a single interview Keaton did where he talks about how restrictive his suit was when he went to do that first rooftop kick in BATMAN.

Anyway, I decided to do a "study". First I compared the way he moved in the previous franchise to the way Batman actors/stuntmen have moved in films where his suits are less restrictive, in this case BATMAN: DEAD END and BATMAN: DARK JUSTICE. Surprise, surprse, there's almost no difference in the speed of his attacks and defenses. In fact, DEAD END appears to be slightly slower in places. I started to think that perhaps it was having a Batman costume itself on, and not neccessarily a rubber one, that may slow down an actor or stuntman, assuming they do, in fact, look slow, which I don't think many versions of Batman do. So I compared the action in BATMAN and BATMAN RETURNS to films like X-MEN, HELLBOY, THE PUNISHER, and even SPIDER-MAN and SPIDER-MAN 2, and haven't noticed much of a difference when non-CGI actors fight (fight normally, I did not take powers into account) in terms of speed of attack or defense. Intrigued, I went back and watched BATMAN and BATMAN RETURNS tonight to see what's really onscreen, if it's as I remember it being. What I found was interesting.

In BATMAN, Batman...

-Extends his arms up and outward. Twice. Snaps them down quickly.

-Does a high kick

-Walks quickly over to a roof ledge.

-Extends his arms up and outward...again.

-Quickly backhands a thug

-Extends his arms. Again.

-Raises arm with Batpisol in it.

-Turns his head, at least slightly

-Whips his cape backward with both arms

-Whips his arms up and extends them out to glide

-Kicks the gun from Jack Napier

-Picks Napier up, bending arms in the process

-Throws up arm, bending it at the waist, to deflect bullet with gauntlet

-After bending over, straightens rather quickly.

-Raises arm almost fully to smash gas capsule on floor

-Spreads arms wide again to do the "cape effect"

-Whirls and walks off quickly after surveying river below

-Crashes through a skylight, arms spread wide. Again.

-Raises a grappling device with his arm fully extended out

-Extends his legs at a 45 degree angle as he slides down the line

-Lands after leaping off the grapple and whips a gas pellet back into the museum

-Runs down a series of stairs, leaps over the last few

-Climbs into the Batmobile rather quickly, even moving his cape back

-Hops out of the Batmobile with his legs bent

-Runs

-Changes direction quickly

-Runs some more

-Bends upward, without the suit creasing

-Extends both arms up and out to fire the grapple

-Moves one arm upward to hold onto the grapple

-Falls, both arms extended upward

-Lands, sprawled out on the ground

-Kicks upward from the ground

-Manages to leap back onto his feet

-Quickly punches out one thug

-Backhands and throws another

-Quickly snaps a high kick into one thug, blocks, snaps another high kick into his chest

-Whirls toward a sword-bearing thug. Proceeds to use obvious martial arts to block his sword strikes QUICKLY with both arm and leg gauntlets before, you guessed it, snapping a kick into his face.

-Does the "come here" motion with his gloves

-Does quite a bit of walking in the cave

-Extends arms up quickly to cover Vicki in his cape

-Walks quickly

-Stumbles, gets right back up from a kneeling posiition

-Climbs stairs, taking two or three at a time

-Leaps up to where the stairs aren't demolished

-Continues to quickly move up the stairs

-Raises arm, raises trapdoor. TURNS head.

-Quickly extends arm to ballslam attacker

-Leaps into fray, throws a high kick

-Ducks chain swipes at least four times

-Leaps off bell, falls through stairs

-Rolls across a floor, leaps to feet

-Throws legs up, gets bad guy around neck

-Punches The Joker.

-Walks quickly across room, grabs Joker, punches him again

-Looks down

-Throws a fast left hook

That's in BATMAN. In BATMAN RETURNS, Batman...

-Turns his head

-Turns his head again (gasp, could it be?)

-Manipulates small switches with his gloves

-Kicks, then quickly backhands a motorcycle thug

-Quickly raises/extends his arm from his side, weapon in hand

-Extends arms fully outward to headslam two thugs together.

-Turns his head. Again.

-Ducks a kick

-Backhands a thug

-Feints backward to avoid a kick, hops backward and ducks an attack

-Kicks a thug in the stomach

-Ducks another kick

-Kicks a thug in the chest, quickly. He directly follows that kick with a solid, quick punch.

-Moves backward to avoid a staff attack, manages to block with his arm and his leg

-Then, a few moments later, he goes striding along a walk with a nice quick gait and no obvious problems moving in the suit, until he extends his arm quickly to the side to bash and grab a thug.

Oh, and he turns his head again. And the one more time. And then climbs up a ladder. And so on, and so forth.

It would appear that in both films, Batman moves like a normal human being would, despite the obviously armored suit that should restrict him. In fact, he moves like a highly trained normal human being would. Point being, there's no "slow, robotic" movement. At all. Every time he has to move quickly, he does. Every time he has to look like he's fighting well, he does. It's entirely possible that previous suits were restrictive and heavy. But they don't LOOK it onscreen. At all. So where are these "movement and mobility problems" people are always waxing poetic about? Because I don't see them. Never really have, and I see them even less now that I've looked closely. I get that it was difficult to move his head, to a point, but from what I can see onscreen, he kinda can, and did several times. So what the heck is the problem with previous suits? Is it that you know the suit is heavy? Is it that you know it's made of rubber? The BATMAN BEGINS suit is made of rubber, willl it bug you all when it doesn't really stop bullets? The previous Batman films may not have had Batman that looked like they were the masters of 100 kinds of martial arts, but they did have Batmen who looked like they could fight quickly and efficiently. They didn't look at all like robots, or like they were having much trouble moving. I'm not saying the BEGINS suit hasn't improved on the old suits by leaps and bounds in terms of comfort, weight, mobility, etc. But the old suits simply do not show any signs to me of being restrictive beyond the fact that the actors/stuntmen are working in costumes, with capes and cowls and other pieces to take into account. If you can show me an actual instance where Batman looks like he was slowed down to the point where it looks fake, I might be inclined to believe otherwise. I have yet to see this moment. Having worn one of those rubber Batsuits myself, I can voich for the fact that they are somewhat restrictive. At first. Once you learn to move in them, to exert a bit more force and speed with your limbs, this goes away. So, based on what I saw in the films when studying them closer, I submit that anyone who truly believes that Batman truly looks slow or robotic in the films, or somehow looked like he'd have trouble seeing what was going on around him is either in denial, ignorant of what is truly onscreen, or is an idiot.

Discuss.

Last edited by Deadly Lemur, 3/24/2006, 9:25 pm
4/5/2005, 2:34 am Link to this post Send Email to TheGuard   Send PM to TheGuard
 
AlienFilms Profile
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Caped Crusader

Registered: 06-2004
Posts: 1979
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Re: Let's talk about rubber suits, restrictiveness and such...


I agree, It's not that restrictive... I was able to go down a Bouncy slide last weekend at an appearance in the suit & didn't have a problem at all I spread the cape out, Jumped landed on my feet fell to my butt then slid the rest of the way down. It only feels restrictive at first, but once you get the hang of it you find out that you can move it the suit pretty well.

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https://www.facebook.com/AZWayneBatman

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Jants Profile
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Registered: 02-2004
Posts: 2291
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Re: Let's talk about rubber suits, restrictiveness and such...


The first two movie suits, combined total was around 100 lbs. From Forever on, the suits weighed a combined total of around 50 lbs. So they definetely got better. The thing about rubber suits is, it isn't necessary to fill them with foam. I use foam, but very little and only in certain areas, the rest is just a latex skin. In the end a rubber suit is going to be a little uncomfortable and definetely won't be as easy to move in as say a comic book style suit, but you can make it fairly comfortable. I have footage of me doing some kicking techniques here:


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Robin_Moves/

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Brin Londo Profile
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Keeper of the Cave


Registered: 02-2004
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 9351
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Re: Let's talk about rubber suits, restrictiveness and such...


First of all, you have TOO much time on your hands. :hey
Now...this is my take on the subject:
People like to !@#$, actors especially. Tactical vests are restrictive, but Police officers get used to it, and fight actual crime in them. Winter gloves serve a purpose, but you have no sensitivity, and you can't write your name while wearing them. Jock strap (cup) might pinch your nertz, but it'll keep you from getting racked.
You have to get used to wearing the batsuit, before you can move in it comfortably.


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You don't choose the Bat, the Bat chooses you.
4/5/2005, 1:59 pm Link to this post Send PM to Brin Londo
 
stampedemag Profile
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Caped Crusader

Registered: 06-2004
Location: Under a full moon
Posts: 2033
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Re: Let's talk about rubber suits, restrictiveness and such...


Comfort is a big issue for me. I love the way the suit looks but it is not practical. A spandex suit will, of course, move better but you lose the look of a muscle suit. A workaround is making a thin suit that is mounted on an undersuit that can be cut in areas to remain flexable.

Of course most of the problems in the suits are involving the cowl. Not much we can do about that!
4/5/2005, 10:30 pm Link to this post Send Email to stampedemag   Send PM to stampedemag
 
Lewis Tully Profile
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Caped Crusader

Registered: 12-2004
Location: Bardstown, KY
Posts: 2053
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Re: Let's talk about rubber suits, restrictiveness and such...


Interesting study! I haven't had the joy of wearing a rubber Bat suit yet, but hopefully that'll all change in about a week or so. I'll let you's guys know how it goes... Again, this makes for a quite interesting read...

JCG

P.S. In Batman, when he does that "cape effect" you are talking about, he doesn't really raise his arms all the way, because if he did, it would cause the cowl to close up around the neck area, he has a set of poles that allow him to fully raise the cape without fully raising his arms... But still, good point...

Last edited by Lewis Tully, 4/5/2005, 10:45 pm


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"What does that mean?"

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