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henrywayne Profile
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Caped Crusader

Registered: 03-2004
Posts: 1352
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Re: Bat Speargun/Grapnel/Winch


Zane,

This is a very interesting thread!! :up

My Begins Grappler is just a prop replica so I am only using a simple spring loaded mechanism for it, something like a airsoft gun. The shooting distant will depends on how strong the spring coils I choose to use.

It is possible to modify it into a co2 gas powered Begins Grappler. Only needs to buy a co2 gun, disassemble it, using the components (the air compartment, air valve, air hose, etc.) and reconstruct them into the Grappler will do. The cartridge of the Begins Grappler can be modified to hold the co2 cannister so that once the Grappler is out of co2 gas, it can be easily replaced with another cartridge. The shooting distant will depends on what meterial the grapple hook is made of, if the hook is made of light weight metal material, it should be able to shoot up to a 5 storey high building without a problem.

If you needs the Grappler to be able to support a person's weight, the Grappler must be made of very very durable and sturdy material, like titanium metal, especially for the hinges and the gears for the grapple wire winder.

Another thing is the motor and the battery pack that is used for rewinding the grapple wire must be very very powerful as it is needed to lift up a person's weight. I don't think we can ever get a powerful mini motor and a powerful mini battery that is small enough to have them constuctred insde the Grappler, so probably the battery pack and the motor will needs to be constucted into a seperate device and have it attached on a utility belt. The Grappler will needs to add a very secure locking mechanism so that after you shoot out the hook, you can lock the Grappler onto the motor and battery device on the utility belt and lift you up to the building.

So theoretically it is possible to make the Begins Grappler into real deal grapple gun, but the amount money invested in order to do so is HUGH!!!!!!!

That's what I think regarding a Begins Grappler. As for making a powerful grapple gun that can penetrates a wall is out of my field and knowledge to commment on.


Henry

Last edited by henrywayne, 9/10/2007, 4:42 pm
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Blackwood Bat Profile
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Registered: 02-2004
Location: ummm...the Batcave
Posts: 6009
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Re: Bat Speargun/Grapnel/Winch


This would definitely be cool Zane.
Way out of my realm of knowledge,but I'd at least like to see an 89 that works,but it doesn't necessarily have to actually 'perform' in a realistic manner.
At least not for me. :)

John :flapbat

---
"Wile E. Coyote is my reality,Bugs Bunny is my goal."

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Apocalypton Profile
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Caped Crusader

Registered: 02-2004
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Re: Bat Speargun/Grapnel/Winch


Henry:

1.
Thanks for responding, and for suggesting modifications to your Begins grapple gun with CO2 components, so as to make it more powerful. And if modifying your gun could shoot a grapnel dart and 1/10" line 5 stories up - that's 50 feet, and could be good enough for a lot of situations! Can you provide any links to show the particular CO2 gun and parts to use?

2. Recall from the series of posts on another thread that a powerful, miniaturized Winch is already proven out, and that I've already ordered the parts to build it:

http://com1.runboard.com/bbrotherhoodofthebat.f4.t198705|offset=30

3. Page 1 of the present thread has also already shown the Speargun will be separate from the Winch, and will support no weight at all. This is because the 1/10"-diameter grapple line (of 1,400 lbs tensile strength, also shown on Page 1 of the present thread) will be anchored to the metal Winch spool, or reel, and not to the Speargun.

4. The Rocket Gun shown on Page 1 of the present thread is a real one, also shown in the James Bond movie, You Only Live Twice. This gun could be modified to a Speargun with an open slot (instead of only holes) running along one side of the full barrel length. Then a mini-carabiner and line to a protruding fin of the rocket dart could be attached to the dart. And the rocket dart could then be fired up to 100 yards- and with absolutely no recoil!

5. The Speargun is then put away, because the line is not attached to it; the line is attached to the strong and motorized, metal Winch spool. The Winch then does the work of pulling as much as 350 lbs straight up. That's already been calculated and proven by MythBusters; plus calculated by yours truly to operate even better than the MB unit and with better and fewer parts.

6. So my question and challenge to you and other BOTB members, once again, is: Can you build a modified version of the Rocket Gun to contain longer darts (each dart with a sharp, barbed rocket head, connecting fin, and mini-carabiner)? The main challenge is the solid-fuel, mini-rocket darts. This is because the Rocket Gun is a simple and very light pistol housing, with feeding clip and rocket igniter.

7. I know basically how the Rocket Gun is constructed, and the simple trigger mechanism used to ignite the rocket bullets, if anybody here is serious enough to try to build this kind of working rocket Speargun.

8. "Serious" in this discussion means "willing and able to devote the necessary resources." I think money would be substantial, but not HUGE. And I'm handling Winch development, which is far from cheap.

John:

1.
The MB device and test - followed by our own calculations, modifications and materials - show we can build a functional Winch that will be only about 9" long x 2" in diameter (plus the right-angled metal spool or reel).

2. The key Winch parts have already been shipped. 350 lbs can be lifted 100 feet.

3. So through marvelous, miniaturized technology currently being produced and MB-tested - plus valuable help from highly skilled engineers and suppliers in diverse industries - the Winch functioneering has already materialized. I'm handling that project, but need Bro help for some machining and also for someone else to build the Speargun.

So that's where things now stand, Bros. Who can step up and help us get further!
 :dancespot

Zane


Last edited by Apocalypton, 9/10/2007, 10:25 pm


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As a symbol, I can be incorruptible. I can be everlasting.
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Drakul Profile
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Caped Crusader

Registered: 06-2006
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Re: Bat Speargun/Grapnel/Winch


I'm with John, I don't understand anything you're toalking about but it's exciting nonetheless :)

---
Mel

"Could this be...an omen?!!"
9/10/2007, 10:39 pm Link to this post Send Email to Drakul   Send PM to Drakul
 
Apocalypton Profile
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Caped Crusader

Registered: 02-2004
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Re: Bat Speargun/Grapnel/Winch


Another reason Bruce depends on Lucius! emoticon

---
As a symbol, I can be incorruptible. I can be everlasting.
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jokerscrowbar Profile
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Caped Crusader

Registered: 07-2005
Location: Wales
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Re: Bat Speargun/Grapnel/Winch


Instead of modifying the barrel of the gun to take the grapnel, could you mount the grapnel on a tube that fits over the barrel of the gun?
That way you could use different guns for different applications. I dont know what sort of heat would be reflected onto your hand if using a pistol but I know that they work well when mounted over a rifle barrel.

I am still concerned that insted of hooking into masonary the hook will destroy it and that it will simply crumble.




Here is a line luncher that works with any round except armour piercing.

http://www.murphyjunk.bizland.com/id2.html

Image

---
TJ
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Apocalypton Profile
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Caped Crusader

Registered: 02-2004
Posts: 1676
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Re: Bat Speargun/Grapnel/Winch


Thanks TJ - I phoned the supplier. The launcher is about 7/8" in diameter, metal plugged at the end, MIGHT work on a revolver pistol without a barrel sight, causes considerable noise depending on whether a blank or live round is used, causes considerable recoil, and the grapnel hooks are pretty flimsy - designed to trigger mines rather than support loads.

If Henry's gun, modified with CO2 parts, could really shoot 50 feet vertically, that would be cool. The modified James Bond gun is still the front runner by far.


---
As a symbol, I can be incorruptible. I can be everlasting.
9/11/2007, 3:37 pm Link to this post Send Email to Apocalypton   Send PM to Apocalypton
 
jokerscrowbar Profile
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Caped Crusader

Registered: 07-2005
Location: Wales
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Re: Bat Speargun/Grapnel/Winch


I thought about recoil but didn't consider the noise aspect.

I would still go for the tube ( easily made on a lathe )with one of those Spitfire arrowheads bolted to the end and then a nice big blob of weld just to make sure.
It would also be easier to fix your line to the tube rather than compramise the tip.

Could you coat the arrowhead with diamond dust for extra penetration?

If you have a source for the rocket rounds then you may be better off making your own gun from scratch or a or modified from second hand parts.

I understand that to be as functional as possible you need this to be quiet but a long barreled magnum going off would be no more conspicious than a guy dressed in black latex winching himself up a building so for certain uses you could go for the cheaper gunpowder rounds.



---
TJ
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clevelandfx Profile
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Caped Crusader

Registered: 01-2005
Location: Cleveland, Oh
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Re: Bat Speargun/Grapnel/Winch


DAMN! I'm so tired of typing a response and having it disappear!

DAMN YOU AT&T DSL!

I'll just go write it offline and try again later

---
My, my, my. Such a lot of guns around town and so few brains.
9/12/2007, 3:13 am Link to this post Send Email to clevelandfx   Send PM to clevelandfx
 
clevelandfx Profile
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Caped Crusader

Registered: 01-2005
Location: Cleveland, Oh
Posts: 1891
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Re: Bat Speargun/Grapnel/Winch



5th time's the charm, right?

SO, lots of wet blanketness here, but have to say it.


Forget spearguns, unstable in air, not designed for it, not powerful enough.

Any gas is big and bulky or woefully underpowered, so it's out.

Chemical propellant is the way to go for "off the shelf" kind of construction. Unless you want to build a railgun or something, but the size rules that out.

I mentioned the gyrojet as an example of the kind of thing that could potentially be the right kind of combination of spin, force, and size, BUT IIRC, the thing was a failure. Not many made due to cost of the rockets, accuracy, things of that nature...I've seen one in person, once. Wasn't too impressed.

The projectile itself...it's NOT going to bore/drill/burrow/punch through any material without serious damage to either itself in the form of warping/breaking/weakening to the point of uselessness. The material being aimed at is also a huge problem. Concrete isn't going to be penetrated with enough force from anything launched at it that isn't constantly forcing itself forward, which means any angle shots are out, it HAS to be straight on. That's why I mentioned the gyro jet, you're going to have to continually force the "hook" forward in a drill like fashion to penetrate anything. If you've ever shot a cinderblock or concrete with a gun you'll probably have noticed one of a few common outcomes. A giant crate in the face with no penetration and no material left where the projectile had "passed through", a hole in the front and a giant crate in the rear which would render it useless for anchoring anything to, major cracking, or no impact whatsoever. Metal's even worse. Anything softer (like your hook) will deform when it hits it, or anything hardened can just shatter...to get penetration there you need to know just what it is you're aiming for and what you;ve got. Not going to happen. Glancing blows to anything are a no-go for ANY system employed, so you had better have another plan and fast. To get the kind of penetration AND to keep things intact would take something like a HEAT round that kills tanks. It uses explosives and shaped charges to liquefy a copper slug and "cut" through the tank's armor, like a water-jet machine, in our case we'd need that to put a hole in the material (without killing anyone behind it) and then a secondary projectile to fly into the hole and anchor itself with enough holding power to counter the forces involved. Look at the 25mm airburst munitions the army's working on, programmable for distance, but not quick in any sense unless you were to incorporate a laser range finder into the hook itself. Another possible solution would be some kind of frangible sabot that wouldn't give way in flight, but on contact with the surface would somehow convert to a lubricant and allow the hook to enter the material.

The line...Something that can handle the static and shock loads with enough room for error. Have to look to rope and cable manufactures, or rock climbing type sites for the specs on all that. Steel cable is an easy NO in this department, if it snaps you might as well stick your head in a guillotine. Some of the synthetic materials could possibly have similar dangers involved.

The harness system has to be a full body setup at the least.


There are TONS of little complications that all have to be worked out in conjunction with each other as changing one component will alter all the others. It's really a HUGE job when compared to the winch. Without a lottery winner and a stable of engineers, out of the box thinkers, computer modeling software, and NATICK or DARPA it's a monumental task.

The more I think about it, the more I think slinging a shotgun line launcher connected to a backpack full of rope is the only really practical way to go unless you have taxpayer's money to waste.

Also, in regards to the winch, don't forget you'll need something along the lines of a quick disconnect for the line, or a way to quickly sever it if you were to "escape" the police, would sure suck to be stuck trying to either reel it in or play it all out in order to not leave your expensive and somewhat bulky winching system behind for them to track back to you.

I'm glad I only operate in the realm of reality enough to find that magical suspension of disbelief needed for movies.

I'm sure I've left out large important parts of the previous post attempts, and I really hate sounding like a wet blanket negative Nancy here, but it's really a hugely complex task to undertake. As Bethany Sloane said in Dogma, "it's too big"

Last edited by clevelandfx, 9/12/2007, 3:55 am


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My, my, my. Such a lot of guns around town and so few brains.
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