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michaelsean55
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Registered: 05-2008
Posts: 20
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Re: Batman: A discussion of the "character," "murder," and "Justice"
In my very humble opinion i think that batmans understanding of killing someone when you have to is what makes him very different from superman. superman goes by the book and doesn't step out of what is right but batman will do whatever it takes to bring a bad guy down even if it means having to kill someone im not saying when he walks out of the bat cave hes like who can i kill today but if that is the very last option batman will do what he has to do to stop that person
thats just my opinion
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6/8/2008, 11:04 pm
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TheDarkKnight87
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Registered: 03-2008
Posts: 143
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Re: Batman: A discussion of the "character," "murder," and "Justice"
I also do not think Batman would be the one to kill, but that doesn't mean he won't beat someone within an inch of his life.
There are often situations in the real world where I feel that death is just simply not a good enough price for a criminal to pay. You can check out this article for an example (Warning:extremely graphic language)
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/06/nyregion/06rape.html?ex=1370491200&en=bc60cf51266f5a15&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink
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Is that a baby? You brought a baby with you?!
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6/9/2008, 12:40 am
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spartan1195
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Registered: 03-2008
Location: Manchester, England
Posts: 149
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Re: Batman: A discussion of the "character," "murder," and "Justice"
I've read several post remarking "break every bone in his body"..."put him in hospital for months"..."beat within an inch etc..etc.." but someone beaten so severe could very easily die, so is your point "well if he doesnt die straight away, then thats OK!" :rollin
Personally (in a REAL world) i think Batman would HAVE to kill on occasion, sometimes there would be no option.
But hey its all make believe so we can have whatever we want :p
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6/9/2008, 4:57 am
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isshogai
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Registered: 05-2005
Posts: 745
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Re: Batman: A discussion of the "character," "murder," and "Justice"
Thanks Alice, it's very kind of you and thansk for your input. Again, let's look at your example. I think it's safe to say that everyone agrees that Batman represetns the ultimate in hand to hand combat etc, hence my arguement on risk factors.
Now with that in mind we can look at your example. The Joker, machine gun, crowd of people. In this situation, as you correctly gussed Batman doesn't need to kill him him to stop him from firing the gun and hurting innocent people - all he need to do is throw one single batarang (a feat he can perfrom with exact precision and accuracy) into the brachial nerve, which would cause him to instantly drop the gun.
Crisis averted. You also have to take into account the current and developing psychological makeup of the Joker, - he wants to get caught, he wants Batman to beat him, that's part of the game, and thus he creates crimes that while contain the possability of real threat and danger, ultimately are designed to fail so that the Joker and Batman can continue there little dance.
Also, you bring up the point of Arkham. There's a reason he goes there and not to Blackgate or get the Death Penalty - he's insane and thus not responsible for his actions. A jury of sane people, didn't execute him either, society chooses not to kill him, and therefore Batman had no moral grounding to do so either. If the normal people of Gotham don't find it moral to kill an individual who is mentally ill, then how could Batman.
The same is true for many of the Batman villian gallery. But also keep in mind these were NOT the original Batman villans so to speak - Batman was for normal criminals, thugs, mafia etc, against whom he had clear advantage over. The super-criminal so to speak is an aborhation, a mutation of the criminal class in the Batman ethos, one that isn't accounted for by anything other than insanity in the DCU.
The problem as I see it, is that if Batman was to kill the Joker or any other criminal deliberately, then it is an admission of weakness. Then he's not the Batman, a man so well trained and resourceful that he doesn't HAVE to resort to killing. That's the hard aspect of being the Batman. Sure anyone can end a conflict in death.
That's one of the basis for my instruction. Give me 8 hours and I can teach most people how to eliminate a threat with no prior training. Building a man or woman so good at combat that they can maintain order and saftey without resorting to killing someone - now that is impressive, a complete work of fiction - that's the Batman.
Any fool can pull a trigger. Any trained person can deduce a crime, perform forensics etc. There are VERY few people, if any that have the skill and ability to render someone incapable of commiting harm without killing them or severely crippling them. (Keep in mind I am refferring ONLY to asocial violence, ie a lehtal force situation, not the silly alpha male quest for position like a bar fight).
Hope that makes sense.
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6/9/2008, 5:20 am
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jokerscrowbar
Caped Crusader
Registered: 07-2005
Location: Wales
Posts: 4338
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Re: Batman: A discussion of the "character," "murder," and "Justice"
Power is nothing without control.
Like isshogai said as you get older you have less options and so might go directly for the lethal blow. Luckily Batman never has to get old.
Batman cant really kill The Joker it would be like yin killing yan they need each other for balance. If he was going to kill him it would have been a very short comic series. The battle of good versus evil is what makes it interesting.
In The Killing Joke, Jim asks Batman not to kill Joker but to bring him in alive so that justice may be done, Batman has always tried to do that even when he knows it will only end in tears.
Yes The Joker does very bad things but Batman is very good and killing is never the ideal option.
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TJ
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6/9/2008, 5:33 am
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Rohun
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Registered: 06-2006
Location: Port Colborne, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1438
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Re: Batman: A discussion of the "character," "murder," and "Justice"
My Batman would never kill unless it was absolutley necessary. A complete absolute.
This is why I'm bothered when I watch the old Batman movies again. Keaton killed a lot of thugs without even thinking about it. I didn't notice this as a child, but when I grew older and became a fan of the real (comic) Batman, the parts of these movies almost anger me.
In my opinion it's a big part of Batman's character that he refuses to kill. Where a life bent on revenge against the wicked for losing your loved ones to a criminal has become a huge cliche, it sets Batman apart that he will not kill.
I'll argue this to the death with any of my friends who brings it up. They jokingly bring up a non canon story, and I shoot it down immediately. I will not accept that Batman has killed unless it was absolutely necessary, or he was at his absolute breaking point. He is human, after all. More human that any other hero that's gone through half the crap he has.
--- Adam
"Deep down, Clark is essentially a good person... Deep down, I'm not."
***ALBUM OF VARIOUS BAT EMBLEMS*** |
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6/9/2008, 8:30 am
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BladeAndBatmanFan
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Registered: 10-2005
Location: Memphis TN
Posts: 467
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Re: Batman: A discussion of the "character," "murder," and "Justice"
My question is, if Batman DOES kill - then what separates him from the monsters he is fighting?????
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"It's not who you are inside, but what you DO that defines you!"
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6/9/2008, 6:53 pm
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Knightof Honour
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Registered: 05-2005
Posts: 1342
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Re: Batman: A discussion of the "character," "murder," and "Justice"
You need to go deeper into the psyche of the character,Chuck. A cumulative view is in order to understand WHY Batman will eventually kill. He will see his measured reponse to all the crime and killing (on the part of his foes) and realize it does no good to just put them away. The ones put away will come back to create more crime (more severe) while the killing field grows in Gotham, adding to the old guard the new killers grow.
And grow wild. He will face a new breed of criminals, not business mafia, but sociopathic killers who truly have no regard for you or any authoritarian boundary. They won't recognize rules and they will not stop. Perhaps he will pit them against each other. But I feel certain the measured response will stop (for this breed at least) and elimination will be needed.
For me, he is no less "Batman" and more "Joker" for this choice. He is what he always was: a force to reckon with the crime around him. If it becomes lethal because he comes to understand they simply must not return to the street, so be it.
I understand and it's ok by me.
It is, after all, a war.
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6/9/2008, 8:23 pm
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Lrcrow
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Registered: 01-2007
Location: Gotham City, TX
Posts: 7632
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Re: Batman: A discussion of the "character," "murder," and "Justice"
Quote:
BladeAndBatmanFan wrote:
My question is, if Batman DOES kill - then what separates him from the monsters he is fighting?????
If a cop kills a criminal, what separates HIM from the monsters he's fighting?
The obvious answer would be, his motivation for doing so.
Batman is, more or less, a self-appointed cop.
--- www.bat-tales.net
Batman short stories
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6/9/2008, 10:17 pm
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jokesterjmac
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Registered: 03-2008
Posts: 1128
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Re: Batman: A discussion of the "character," "murder," and "Justice"
my thoughts exactly!
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ZUR EN AHRR
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6/9/2008, 10:24 pm
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